In our first episode of "Pro Bono with Ed Nahhat," we were thrilled to host Kemp Klein's Joe Buttiglieri, an esteemed lawyer with an impressive 48 years of legal experience. Our conversation spanned various aspects of Joe's career, his approach to law, and the significant changes he's witnessed in the legal profession.
Joe marked the beginning of his career back in November 1976, a time before the widespread use of the internet and email. He reminisced about the early days when communication was primarily through phone calls and letters, and how the advent of technologies like photocopiers was a big deal. Reflecting on these changes, Joe emphasized the importance of continual learning and adapting to maintain relevance and engagement in legal practice. His early involvement with the Institute for Continuing Legal Education was a pivotal element that kept his career fresh by requiring him to stay updated and knowledgeable about varying legal topics.
An interesting segment of our discussion highlighted Joe's role as a mediator, a skill he has honed over the years, characterized by his strong ethos of treating everyone with the respect they deserve. This approach, he believes, has been crucial not only in litigation but also in effective mediation. Joe attributes his success in building a good rapport with both colleagues and adversaries to the foundational values instilled by his parents—treating others as one would like to be treated, irrespective of the adversarial nature of legal disputes.
We also delved into Joe's legal philosophy and his motivation for pursuing a career in law. He shared his views on the law as a tool for maintaining a civil society, especially poignant given his formative years during the 1960s—a time marked by significant social and political upheaval. Joe expressed a deep commitment to resolving conflicts through legal means rather than violence, highlighting his belief in the power of the law to foster a civilized society.
Finally, Joe touched on his courtroom experiences and the personal connections that have become rarer in the age of digital communication and remote hearings. He reminisced about the benefits of direct interactions with clients and colleagues, which have been somewhat diminished by the convenience but impersonal nature of video conferencing tools like Zoom.
Our discussion not only shed light on Joe's extensive career and legal insights but also offered valuable lessons on adaptability, respect, and the enduring importance of personal integrity in the practice of law.
Link: Institute for Continuing Legal Education (ICLE) http://www.icle.org/
Pro Bono Episode 1 Rev 1
Speakers: Ed Nahhat & Joe Buttiglieri
[Music Playing]
Ed Nahhat (00:05):
Alright, it's Pro Bono with Ed Nahhat, where we talk about the law with lawyers and other miscreants. Today's guest is Joe Buttiglieri, my good friend, Joe. How are you, Joe?
Joe Buttiglieri (00:16):
Good. I want to know if I'm a lawyer or miscreant.
Ed Nahhat (00:19):
That's up to you. And maybe it's up to our audience.
Joe Buttiglieri (00:22):
Fair enough.
Ed Nahhat (00:23):
Thanks for joining us today, Joe, you are our first guest.
Joe Buttiglieri (00:25):
Well, thank you for inviting me Ed.
Ed Nahhat (00:27):
You know why? Because-
Joe Buttiglieri (00:28):
Because I'm the oldest one here.
Ed Nahhat (00:29):
Well, that's one of the things I wanted to talk to you about today. I mean, how long you've been practicing. It's amazing to me because I see you here every day, and I know you've been practicing longer than me, but I feel the weight of it. I'm over 30 years in. How many years have you been practicing?
Joe Buttiglieri (00:44):
Well, Ed, this year I'll celebrate 48 years. I've been practicing since November of 1976.
Ed Nahhat (00:49):
So, that was before the internet, right?
Joe Buttiglieri (00:52):
Well, before you were born, probably.
Ed Nahhat (00:54):
No, no, no. I was in high school. Okay, so. But seriously, that's such an interesting time. You're practicing in ‘76. You're fresh out of law school. There's no internet, there's no email. How did lawyers communicate with each other?
Joe Buttiglieri (01:09):
Phone. Phone and letters. That was it. There's no email or in person. I mean, obviously we had meetings.
Ed Nahhat (01:17):
And you had carbon paper.
Joe Buttiglieri (01:19):
When I started, we were still using carbon paper. Photocopiers came out probably about the time I started practicing.
Ed Nahhat (01:26):
What I'm always interested in with guys whose practice starts then and passes through this era is how you adapt and how you stay energetic, and how you stay engaged with a client who has all these changes they have to go through the business client, the trust client. How do you adapt?
Joe Buttiglieri (01:45):
You have to learn new things. You have to keep learning. You have to be open to learning. You have to be open to legal education. And so, I've been very fortunate in that very early in my career, I became acquainted with the Institute for Continuing Legal Education. Not only for my own education, but I was invited by ICLE to start speaking.
And I found that has helped keep the law fresh for me because every time I speak for ICLE, I have to do research. I have to reeducate myself in different areas of the law.
Ed Nahhat (02:12):
That's ICLE you're talking about.
Joe Buttiglieri (02:15):
ICLE. I call it ICLE, the Institute for Continuing Legal Education.
Ed Nahhat (02:18):
They're the folks out in Ann Arbor right?
Joe Buttiglieri (02:20):
They're based in Ann Arbor out of the University of Michigan.
Ed Nahhat (02:23):
This is the thing, I don't know if you know this, but the first time I ever saw you or ever was aware of you, was at a seminar and you were the speaker. And I was a younger attorney, I went to the seminar and I thought, “That guy's good.”
You held the audience, you gave a speech about probate law, and it was one of those big rooms at Wayne County. Do you remember this?
Joe Buttiglieri (02:45):
I do.
Ed Nahhat (02:46);
Yeah. I thought, “I want to be like that guy.” And it was really impressive.
Joe Buttiglieri (02:50):
Well, I'll pay you the $5 for saying later.
Ed Nahhat (02:52):
Yeah. All these years later.
Joe Buttiglieri (02:54):
But I've always enjoyed public speaking in general. Maybe it's because I'm a big ham. Maybe it's because I think sometimes, I have a message to give and it reminds me of what I'm doing when I'm in court.
I like being in court and I'm representing my client. One of the reasons it stays fresh for me is because I enjoy what I'm doing. As I often say, when people say, “I can't believe you're still doing it.” It's not like I dig ditches. It's an intellectual pursuit.
As long as my mind is working, as long as I'm reasonably healthy, I can do it. And I don't have any particular reason to walk away from it. Generally speaking, I like my clients. I like what I do. And most of the time, I like the judges I appear before.
Ed Nahhat (03:32):
Well, they certainly like you, Joe. I mean, I've come to know you. I've worked with you now for over 10 years, and everywhere I go all across the Tri-County area all across Michigan, I don't know anyone who doesn't like Joe Buttiglieri, people who are your adversaries, people who have cases with you.
I know lawyers who have cases against you and with you at the same time, and it's really impressive. That's why I wanted you to talk to me today, because it's a unique kind of personality or reputation that you've developed that other lawyers who are watching this might want to emulate.
So, how is it that you can have an attorney at another law firm be an adversary in one case and then refer a case to you, the very next case? How can that happen?
Joe Buttiglieri (04:24):
I think I actually have a partial answer for that Ed. My parents raised me to treat everybody like I want to be treated myself. I try to keep that in mind every day. I'm not perfect at it. But the fact that you're opposing counsel doesn't mean that you're my enemy. It means you've got a job to do. I've got a job to do.
I want to treat you like I want to be treated by you. And that's true of clients. That's true of judges. I mean, some judges, sometimes you get in front of them and they seem a little cranky. Maybe they're having a bad day, but most of the time, judges are there to do their job and they want to help us. They want to do what's right for the clients.
And the way to get that done is to treat the court, the client and opposing counsel and co-counsel like you would want to be treated yourself.
Ed Nahhat (05:07):
That's interesting because you evolved your practice not only to be an effective advocate, but as a mediator. It seems like you've developed this whole nother area where you're like one of the go-to mediators in the state. I know of three or four mediators in your field that are in the top. And wherever I go, Wayne County, Oakland County, Macomb County lawyers are always saying to me.
In fact, I had one recently Joe, where I have a case where it's very contentious, and the lawyer says to me, “Well, I would mediate the case with Buttligelieri.” And I say, “Well, I can't because he's my partner.” And he says, “Oh, yeah, I guess.”
Joe Buttiglieri (05:52):
Well, they could wave that judge. They could let me do it anyway.
Ed Nahhat (05:55):
I mean, he instantly wants to mediate with you without realizing that we're in the same firm. That's how good your reputation is as a mediator. And so, how do you get that? How do you get that in a mediation session?
Joe Buttiglieri (06:09):
I think for most of the mediation I do, and I know this is not exactly the mediation training. I think I'm valuable to the attorneys and I'm valuable to the clients because of my experience in probate. So, 95% of the mediations I do involve probate law and probate issues.
Plus, most of the attorneys that have come to me have dealt with me one way or another. They've either seen me in court, they've seen me at an ICLE seminar like you first did. They've been against me on a case. They've been with me on a case. And they know that whatever else I do, I make it my hallmark to treat people fairly and to listen.
I think one of the reasons some mediators are very successful and others aren't, is mediators that listen and listen to the story, both from the attorney and from the clients can make a difference. Because if you listen, you can start to find pathways to settlement.
Ed Nahhat (07:01):
I was talking to you the other day about when you started out, and it's similar to when I started out, because when I started out, believe it or not, there wasn't email.
Joe Buttiglieri (07:12):
I believe that.
Ed Nahhat (07:12):
I know I'm younger than you, but there wasn't email. And I came up into practice where you had to talk to the other lawyer. You had to talk to him. You called him on the phone, you dialed his number, and you got him on the phone because that's the only way you could communicate.
You could write a letter. Letters went in the mail, and if you had a hearing the next day or that Friday, you had to talk to the guy or the lady on the phone. And then when you went to the courthouse, you had to meet them in person, shake their hand, talk to them in the hallway.
And there was some benefit to the connection that you would make. You talked to them on the phone is a lot different than email.
Joe Buttiglieri (07:54):
Well, lately when I go to court and I run into lawyers that I haven't seen sometimes since pre-COVID for three or four years, I'm just so thrilled to see them. I don't even remember whether I liked them or don't like them, or if we had a bad experience last time.
I'm happy to see people. I like to think of myself as a people person. And I think lawyers that deal with clients a lot and that go to court better be people person, because you have to deal with the court clerks.
Maybe more important than how you talk to the judge you have to deal with the opposing counsel. You've got to deal with your client. You've got to talk to your client about how to behave in court. And we've lost a lot of that.
While I'm in favor of Zoom, I'm not anti-Zoom. And it can be very useful for certain aspects of the practice of law. We've lost something in terms of the amount of personal contact. It used to be that I was in court almost daily. Several times a week I would be in court. Three times a week was not that unusual and that's all changed.
Many times now, my clients are not even in the same room with me when we're on a Zoom hearing, or worse yet, we're in a waiting room and we're not even seeing what kind of mood the judge is in that day so that you can sort of judge how you're going to make your presentation.
Ed Nahhat (09:08):
But yesterday you were in court, in live court and you had what, three matters in the same courthouse?
Joe Buttiglieri (09:15):
Originally, had four matters up in either two different courthouses or … but two of them ended up by Zoom, one ended up in person. I took the one in person, you covered one for me.
Ed Nahhat (09:26):
I covered one, yeah.
Joe Buttiglieri (09:27):
And I'm embarrassed to say I don't remember who else covered for me yesterday.
Ed Nahhat (09:30):
Well, here's a file from yesterday okay.
Joe Buttiglieri (09:32):
Thank you, Ed.
Ed Nahhat (09:33):
You're welcome. I took care of that for you. That was on Zoom. And then I had another Zoom. And it's fascinating because Zoom — or it's equivalent in Florida, I have a case in Florida, so they don't use Zoom in Florida courts.
But it can be very efficient. But I agree, there's something you miss out. For example, when I first started practicing, it was fun to have the client right there, you could talk to and you could work out a deal right there.
You go in the back room with the judge and the other lawyers and you could work out a lot of settlements right there. And now you can't really work out settlements.
Joe Buttiglieri (10:10):
Well, I remember a time that it was almost the rigor where the court would say, “Mr. Buttiglieri, I want you and Mr. Nahhat to go into the jury room and talk this over and see what you can work out on these discovery issues.
Or I want you, Mr. Nahhat and your respective clients to go into the jury room. Take as much time as you need. Don't come back here unless you have a settlement.” And I've had judges say that. And of course, you couldn't always promise that you'd have a settlement.
Ed Nahhat (10:34):
I'll tell you, a lot of people ask me the same question I'm going to ask you, “Why did you become a lawyer? I” think it's important that our clients know that when you choose to become a lawyer, you do it for a reason that matters.
And that you're not just about the billable hour or you're not just about the walking around a courthouse acting important, that it matters to you. And I know what matters to me about it. But I wanted to know, you said something in some notes that you gave me that really impressed me. And if you don't mind me-
Joe Buttiglieri (11:09):
I hope you're going to tell me what I said because I don't remember what I wrote.
Ed Nahhat (11:11):
Yeah, I know you don't. But you said, and this is what really impressed me, Joe, you said that you chose to become a lawyer to help maintain a civil society. I want you to expand on that.
Joe Buttiglieri (11:23):
Ed, I grew up in the late 60s, or I mean, I grew up all through the 60s. But I grew up at a time when there was a lot of conflict going on, conflict about the Vietnam War, conflict about hair length, if you can believe that. Could boys have long hair? Or where they'd be kicked out of school. How short a woman's skirt could be, or a teenage girl's skirt should be, or she'd be kicked out of school.
And so, as I saw this, and I saw the incivility that was going, people screaming at people because of their hair length or people treating our veterans, people who were returning from work screaming at them. And so, they made a choice to start the Vietnamese war.
These were servicemen that were serving their country and appalled me from both sides. Not because I was pro the war so much as these were guys like you and me that probably got drafted.
It was a time there was a lot of controversy over the draft and so I lived through a time that society didn't feel very civil. And I don't want to live someplace where we solve our problems with guns and knives. It's anathema to me. It's not the way I was raised.
And so, I began to see the law as a way to preserve civil society, as a way to resolve issues without resort to guns and knives and violence.
And certainly, when I was younger, and maybe not as sophisticated as I am now, or I hope I'm a little more sophisticated I thought of it almost strictly in terms of the criminal law. And I initially envisioned myself that somehow, I would be the next Clarence Darrow. I would be a criminal lawyer.
Well, as I became better educated and began to understand what the law is about, I was very attracted to civil practice. Though I did criminal practice for a while. I never found it that satisfying.
But civil practice gives us an opportunity for people to solve their problems, even if they can't amicably solve their problems, to get those matters resolved without resorting to violence, without resorting to subterfuge or terrible behavior by going into the courts.
That's why I believe it's so incredibly important that our courts have the trust and confidence of the average person. And if people respect the courts, then they'll respect the decisions of the courts. That's a civil society for me. That's what I meant.
I still feel that way today. And it's one of the reasons I can still get excited about practicing law almost 48 years later. Because most of the time I feel like I am helping people. I feel like I am giving value for what I charge.
And as you know, it's expensive to hire lawyers. Litigation is expensive. And I'm never embarrassed to say that to people so that they understand what they're getting into. But we give value. It's much better to spend money on litigation than it is to devolve into an uncivil society.
Ed Nahhat (14:21):
That's beautiful. There's a couple other things I want to talk to you about before we wrap up.
Joe Buttiglieri (14:25):
We’re almost done. Oh, God I thought we were spending the day together, Ed.
Ed Nahhat (14:29):
Yeah. Well, we have lots of days to spend together, Joe.
Joe Buttiglieri (14:31):
Alright. Fair enough.
Ed Nahhat (14:33):
Up and down the hallway. You were talking about when you first started out doing some criminal work. I have some experience with that too. When I first started out, I hung my own shingle and I did criminal appointments.
But you told me a story once about criminal appointments that I never got even close to. You told me you were like a lawyer for the day in 36th District Court.
Joe Buttiglieri (14:59):
They used to call it (and I hope this isn't inappropriate), queen for the day. You would be appointed to one courtroom for the day from 8:30 or 9 o'clock in the morning whenever the judge started until court closed. Theoretically, you were there until 4:30.
Ed Nahhat (15:12):
So, this is right after you get your Barrow license.
Joe Buttiglieri (15:14):
I was a relatively young lawyer. It was certainly within the first two or three years of my practice. You went and sort of, I'm not saying you threw your card in a goldfish bowl but you threw your name into a hat, so to speak. And you might have to talk with a particular judge.
And if you were fortunate, the judge would appoint you and you'd find out, usually a couple weeks ahead of time, you'd be assigned, for example, April 12th, you're on. And they would tell you what courtroom you were assigned to and what judge you were assigned to. And you would go there and you would be the pro bono or the free legal concept.
Ed Nahhat (15:48):
Pro Bono is the name of the show.
Joe Buttiglieri (15:49):
Well, how about that? I wanted to work that in there for you. You'd be the pro bono lawyer for misdemeanor cases where people didn't have a lawyer and they wanted to process those cases like that in one day.
So, you would literally be representing prostitutes, the Johns, if the Johns didn't have their own lawyer and other misdemeanor kinds of things. But of course, as a young attorney, I was very impressed representing prostitutes and Johns. And actually, and I don't want to get salacious, it was interesting work. There were interesting people.
Ed Nahhat (16:21):
I bet.
Joe Buttiglieri (16:23):
Sometimes I think there, but for the grace of God go I, people we know. And so, I found that fascinating work. The other thing I did at the same time was you'd be assigned for a 24-hour period to be the police lineup attorney.
Ed Nahhat (16:39):
That's the one I was thinking of.
Joe Buttiglieri (16:40):
And the police lineup thing was a fascinating …
Ed Nahhat (16:44):
That's like night court, man. That's like, you were like night court, dude.
Joe Buttiglieri (16:47):
Sometimes you get a call at two o'clock in the morning. I shouldn't say this, but I think sometimes the police did it on purpose.
Ed Nahhat (16:53):
I'm sure they did.
Joe Buttiglieri (16:54):
And so, you'd get up at two o'clock in the morning, you'd have to wear a coat and tie. You needed to look like the lawyer. I would go to the first precinct in Detroit, and you would go to the lineup room and there was always a sergeant in charge, invariably sort of a gruff guy. “You're finally a counselor. Get in there.”
And you would help organize, or you would give an opinion on the lineups and you would sign off on the lineups. You were not there to advise any of the people that are in the lineup. But you could change the order of the lineup. You could say that person shouldn't be in the lineup.
Ed Nahhat (17:26):
It was more suggestive or anything.
Joe Buttiglieri (17:28):
Well, you would tell the police what you would approve and then you would sign off on it. And so, they couldn't do a lineup without an attorney there. My job, or the job of that attorney was to make sure that the lineup was fair.
Ed Nahhat (17:41):
Well, it seems to me that those early days, those early experiences to your benefit eventually, because you earn your stripes, as it were. And the cops respect you and the judges respect you. And you do the right thing along the way and you run into them later. And you just build your reputation. You build your practices.
Joe Buttiglieri (18:03):
It helped build your reputation. It helped you to learn how to talk with police officers respectfully. And to be spoken too respectfully and to let them know I wasn't always defending bad guys. I could represent the police department. I could represent people that just were in the wrong place at the wrong time. And so, I found that very useful.
And it was great to deal with judges where you were, as I called it, I think it was called queen for the day. That's not the formal title but you got to know the judges. Sometimes the judge might call you back into chambers and tell you point blank, “I don't think you handled that right counselor. And the next time you have that kind of case, think about this.” So, it was a great education. It was a great experience.
Ed Nahhat (18:49):
Speaking of education and experience, isn't it true that for a time before you came to Kemp Klein, there were some years that you worked with Alan May?
Joe Buttiglieri (19:02):
The firm May & May was my first job out of law school. I worked at May & May while I was in law school and it was my first legal position. And I stayed there for I think a year or two before I moved on.
Ed Nahhat (19:17):
I love that story. Because Mr. May, Alan May is going to be a guest on this program.
Joe Buttiglieri (19:22):
Well, remind him that I brought him to this law firm.
Ed Nahhat (19:26):
I know. That's what I love about this story.
Joe Buttiglieri (19:28):
And as a result of that good relationship and friendship that we built up, when he started thinking about doing something else, he confided in me. And I convinced him to interview here. And the rest is history. Alan's been here with us now for more than 25 years, I think.
Ed Nahhat (19:45):
Well, whatever year it was, I'm glad you did it. Because Alan May is the reason that I joined this firm 10 years ago.
Joe Buttiglieri (19:52):
Not me.
Ed Nahhat (19:53):
I didn't know you well enough, but you were definitely a part of it.
Joe Buttiglieri (19:57):
You were doing so well, now you’re breaking my heart.
Ed Nahhat (19:59):
Well, when I saw the lineup, I knew the Babe Ruth of Kemp Klein was here. That's what I call you. And Alan May was the Casey Stengel of Kemp Klein. So, he's the baseball man.
Joe Buttiglieri (20:08):
Alright. Well, he would like to know he's the manager, or he likes to say the field general.
Ed Nahhat (20:13):
So, I got to talk to you about Beglinger.
Joe Buttiglieri (20:17):
One of my favorite cases.
Ed Nahhat (20:17):
I know. I want to talk to you about it because you go from police lineup and then a bunch of years later, the internet, things happen and then you have this big case called Beglinger and it changes the law, doesn't it?
Joe Buttiglieri (20:31):
I think it did change the law, and I think it's still good law to this day.
Ed Nahhat (20:35):
And I think it's important if we have some trust clients watching this, that they hear from you. I mean, these are fancy words, Joe. I'm not even sure what they mean anymore. And I study this stuff all the time. What is the doctrine of election? What is acquiescence and ratification?
Joe Buttiglieri (20:52):
Well, I think I'd put you all to sleep if I talk about that. But here's the bottom line. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's as simple as that. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say, “Give me the money that I'm owed under the trust.” That's what happened in the Beglinger.
There was a trust, there was a second marriage. And the children from the first marriage had rights under the father's trust, under their father's trust. If I remember correctly, it was to each receive $50,000.
Well, the attorney that was representing the trustee wanted them to sign not just a receipt, but sign a waiver that they received the $50,000 and that they acknowledged and waived any further rights against the estate.
They were represented by a law firm and they said, “Heck no. We're not signing that. We're owed that money if the trust says we're owed the money. So, pay us the $50,000 and we'll sign a receipt.” And that's what happened. They signed a receipt-
Ed Nahhat (21:48):
No waiver.
Joe Buttiglieri (21:48):
No waiver. They then took the money and started a lawsuit to challenge the trust. So, the very cake that they had taken a slice out of, they now wanted to say the cake didn't exist, that it was void. Well, if it was void, how did you get your $50,000? You should have taken other inheritance or some other document. And that's what offended me, quite frankly.
Ed Nahhat (22:10):
Right. Yes. I can tell. It still does.
Joe Buttiglieri (22:12):
And my father, who was not a lawyer, had said to me, years, “Son, you can't have your cake and eat it too.” I never knew what that meant until Beglinger came along. I always looked at my father like, “What's he talking about?” But Beglinger came along and suddenly I understood what it meant. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't do both.
And so, I actually made that part of my oral argument. I don't think I put it into the written pleadings, but I made that part of my oral argument in front of the judge. And we won all the way to the Supreme Court on that.
Now, we didn't have to argue in the Supreme Court because the Supreme Court declined cert, but we won in the Court of Appeals. And to this day, it's still good law.
Ed Nahhat (22:57):
And everyone loves Joe Buttiglieri and now I know why. And I really appreciate you telling me about how you treat people, because it's a little bit of a tip that I think all lawyers can use, and I can definitely use. Your adversary isn't always your adversary.
Joe Buttiglieri (23:12):
Maybe not your best friend, but it might be on the same side the next day. My adversaries are the people I want to — I want them to think of me as somebody that they can call as a mediator. And quite frankly, as I get older, I'm moving my practice more toward mediation, less toward confrontational litigation.
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Ed Nahhat (23:29):
Well, that's great. Well, thanks for joining us on Pro Bono, Joe.
[Music Playing]
Joe Buttiglieri (23:32):
Thanks for having me on.
Ed Nahhat (23:33):
It's really great to get to know you and I hope that our clients and our friends and our attorney friends and judges who watch this will get a few chuckles out of it.
Joe Buttiglieri (23:42):
Chuckles? I just want them to call me.
Ed Nahhat (23:44):
Yeah, right.
Joe Buttiglieri (23:45):
Thank you, Ed.
Ed Nahhat (23:46):
Thanks, a lot.